Joey Baggott
Hey everybody, welcome to the Half Geek Half Human Podcast. We’re glad to have you here today. Our guest for this episode is Michael Epps Utley. He is a self-described serotonin junkie and the founder of GoEpps Digital Marketing, located in Nashville, Tennessee.
Michael is not only passionate about digital marketing but also an avid hiker and cyclist. He has already completed 10% of the Appalachian Trail and cycled across multiple states. Additionally, he actively engages with the local community of East Nashville, serving on various advisory boards and boards of directors for STEM education and children’s organizations. We’re excited to have you on the show today, Michael. Thanks for joining us!
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, thanks so much. It’s a great opportunity for us to do this together. Atiba and I have been neighbors in Nashville and our paths have crossed over the years. We’ve recently collaborated on some projects, so we’re thrilled to represent GoEpps on your podcast today. Thank you for having us.
Joey Baggott
Yeah, absolutely, man. It’s great to have you, and I really want to start by discussing your background. So GoEpps is your company, and obviously, there’s some history behind it since your middle name is Epps. I’d like to delve into that and start with your origin story. Who is Michael Epps Utley, and what gives you the authority to speak on digital marketing and AI?
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, that’s great. I hope this is as interesting to people as it is to me. It has been a fascinating journey throughout my entire life. I’m originally from Tennessee, specifically West Tennessee, and I attended the University of Tennessee Knoxville for my undergraduate studies.
I pursued a degree in creative writing with the intention of entering higher education and eventually obtaining a Ph.D. in history. I enrolled in graduate school at Vanderbilt University, specifically in the divinity school, where I focused on church history. I was intrigued by philosophy, world religions, and Christianity, so I immersed myself in studying those subjects.
However, during that time, I realized that my energy and passion were better suited for the business world rather than an academic environment. I had a moment where I saw two of my favorite professors pass each other in a hallway without even acknowledging one another. It made me reflect on the solitary nature of their work—secluded in their offices, engrossed in writing their next book, and rarely interacting with others. I craved a more people-centric environment.
So, when I completed my studies, my “Plan B” became my new “Plan A.” I shifted my focus to the publishing industry, as I wanted to be surrounded by people and engage in collaborative work. I started working in book publishing, specifically as an editor. I had been editing books for about six weeks when someone approached me and asked, “Hey, would you consider taking a promotion? Have you ever thought about going into sales?” At that moment, the idea of me pursuing a career in sales couldn’t have been further from my imagination.
Annakate Ross
Laughs.
Michael Epps Utley
I had a conversation with the founder of the publishing house I was working for. At that time, I had recently gotten married, and my wife and I had come to Nashville for our education at Vanderbilt. We went through the journey of attending Vanderbilt, buying our first house, and starting a family. We now have four boys. During this period, I found myself questioning my path and where I was headed. However, the fast-paced and energetic nature of sales and marketing felt right to me. There was something about it that resonated with me, although I didn’t fully grasp that business and creativity were my true calling.
Throughout my liberal arts education and observing my father, who was a lawyer and had built a small business, I had this persistent feeling of unfinished work and a sense that I should start my own company. For about 12 years, I worked for other companies in the field of digital marketing, gradually transitioning to focus solely on digital marketing as my primary career for the past 25 years. However, there was always this underlying urge to embark on something new and entrepreneurial.
I held various jobs in town, always involving written and printed materials, which gradually shifted towards a more digital orientation. Yet, it was within the marketing and sales realm that I found the most vibrant energy. Consequently, I ended up managing marketing for companies like magazines and dot coms.
I was heavily involved with a startup operation within Lifeway, a Christian publishing company with a century-long history. This particular unit, known as the e-business group, focused on exploring new revenue sources through the internet. It was an ideal combination for me, bringing together my unique background in divinity school, entrepreneurship, and a passion for content, books, and the written word. This fusion led me to develop a content agency and an SEO agency, bringing all these elements together.
It was indeed a strange and challenging journey, filled with ups and downs. Getting started was far from easy, and there were significant failures and setbacks along the way that were utterly devastating. The origin story was far from smooth and straightforward. However, here we are now, successfully growing and scaling up, having become a multimillion-dollar marketing shop. But every step of the way was a difficult one, requiring perseverance and resilience.
Joey Baggott
So, what was the pivotal moment in your career, considering that you have divided it into two halves – twelve and a half years working for other companies and twelve and a half years running GoEpps? Somewhere in the middle, there must have been a moment when you decided, “You know what? I need to leave the corporate world and start my own venture.” What prompted that decision?
Michael Epps Utley
It’s interesting, and the choppiness in the story is what makes it intriguing. So, instead of burying the lead, let me give you the headline first: Massive devastating failure led to success. That’s the essence of this story. It wasn’t that I lost interest or became impatient with the corporate environment. It was more about feeling constrained and slowed down. I encountered situations where I was told I was too young for certain positions, or that having older individuals reporting to me wouldn’t be a cultural fit. Everything felt sluggish and I had this strong urge to build my own machine.
Around 2008, I left my last job as a marketing manager for another company and decided to start my own shop. However, it happened to be the year of the banking crisis. I had six months’ worth of website projects lined up, but then the phone started ringing, and one after another, the clients canceled. They were about to sign contracts, but due to the banking crisis, they backed out. At the same time, our house’s HVAC system broke down during the winter in Nashville. With the constant stream of bad news and the weight of failure, I was devastated. I felt that it was time to take a job and admit that I wasn’t ready for entrepreneurship.
During that period, I was deeply questioning myself, and I eventually took a job with a startup in Washington, D.C.
We moved the family up to DC and managed to get through the winter with the help of a space heater. The whole experience was incredibly challenging, and you can imagine the despair and heartbreak that comes with hitting rock bottom. Even now, I still feel a sense of pain when I enter that room of the house. However, moving the family and taking a job with a startup in DC marked the beginning of a new realization. I understood that I wasn’t ready before, and several insights converged, paving the way for my next attempt at building something meaningful.
Annakate Ross
Um, yeah.
Michael Epps Utley
Number one, I lacked the maturity to fully understand what it meant to be accountable for performance and to truly serve clients by putting myself in their shoes. I learned that to deliver for clients, I needed to be willing to do whatever it takes to make things work for them. That was a crucial insight.
Number two, during my time in the DC area, I had the opportunity to work for a startup and then an agency for two years. Those two years with the agency proved to be incredibly valuable. I was able to acquire important skills while being supported by someone else’s resources. I did excellent work, but more importantly, I gained valuable knowledge about the missing pieces and aspects I had previously failed to understand.
Number three was my personal “good to great” moment. In 2012, a friend approached me and asked if I could put together an SEO package to offer to their clients. This sparked the realization of the power of recurring revenue. I recognized that recurring revenue is far more advantageous than relying solely on project-based businesses. This revelation energized me, and I developed a comprehensive SEO program that began to sell successfully.
Then, a turning point occurred when another friend asked me to evaluate their website for SEO. During the presentation, they interrupted me and asked, “What would it take for you to have a real impact on our business?” I crunched the numbers and quoted them $284,000 to achieve a 20% growth next year. To my surprise, they agreed. This marked a significant moment where I had to balance my day job at the agency I loved with taking on freelance writers in Nashville and promoting them to project team leaders. I built a remote team, and the company began to take shape. It started as a side hustle but quickly became overwhelming, forcing me to make it my full-time commitment. In the second year after this turning point, I became the second employee of my own company and went full-time. Since then, we have experienced continuous growth, with revenues doubling three times. I couldn’t be more thrilled with our progress.
However, it’s essential to acknowledge that failure played a pivotal role in my journey. The failures I experienced, along with the lessons learned from them, were critical stepping stones on the path to success.
Joey Baggott
That’s great to hear, and I’m glad you find the story inspiring. It truly captures the essence of the American dream, where individuals can overcome challenges and use them as a steppingstone to create something remarkable.
Before we move on, I have one final question and then I’ll hand it over to Annakate, who is our digital marketing historian and expert at Atiba. Sorry, I just threw you under the bus there Annakate. We had a call earlier this week and at one point I thought you had a cigar in your hand. You were kind of like flicking it around. I was like what does this guy do – he’s got a cigar inside? So can you tell us about your token there before we move on.
Michael Epps Utley
Um, yeah, this is funny. So, yeah, I do have a master’s in church history, and I’m very much a reader of literature. I love things like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and fantasy, as well as talismans and objects of power. Recently, my wife and I were visiting her father and walking through a commercial building that he owns, which had suffered significant damage. We came across this piece of copper pipe, and the whole place was in a devastating state. I don’t know if I can show it close enough to the camera, but there’s a little crack in it.
Joey Baggott
Yeah.
Annakate Ross
Um, we can see it.
Michael Epps Utley
That little crack cost $30,000, and at that time, GoEpps was in a phase of getting things dialed in and leveling up. Transitioning from a startup to a scale-up involves making tough decisions and experiencing a lot of pain. We realized that some of our previous thinking was flawed, and we needed accountability and a system that fosters a sense of belonging and teamwork among our employees. We work closely together, depending on one another, and understanding that mistakes can have consequences, especially when they affect our clients. That crack in the copper pipe became a visual representation for the new team I was building and expanding. It symbolized the importance of paying attention to the details, being proactive, and striving to provide exceptional customer service. We want to be one of the best companies in the world when it comes to client retention and satisfaction. Our focus on project-based revenue has been supercharged by our high client retention numbers, something I didn’t fully appreciate before. Now, I want to institutionalize and operationalize our approach to client retention, and it has been a significant topic of discussion over the past six months. So, when I saw that cracked copper pipe, it became my new favorite object, reminding me of the importance of attention to detail and client retention.
Annakate Ross
I love that it inspires your thinking and seems really motivating too.
Let’s talk about marketing – the work that you do for your clients and just while you were speaking I was thinking about recurring revenue. Sometimes that’s not the most exciting work you’re doing – it’s not the new shiny penny – but it can be such great bread and butter can help you generate these wonderful relationships with your customers for many years. I love hearing about that. It just seems like a great core for your business.
So, before we get too far into this, what would you say sets GoEpps apart? How do you describe yourself or your company?
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, it sounds like we have a unique approach or something distinct about us compared to other companies. In the beginning of conversations with clients, we often encounter a variety of businesses, ranging from small to medium-sized enterprises. Our clients come from diverse industries, such as healthcare networks expanding their reach or companies looking to establish a presence on the West Coast. This variety in our client base leads to engaging and diverse conversations as we tailor our services to meet their specific needs.
Generally, our first point of differentiation is that we begin our process in a spreadsheet and work backward to Photoshop, rather than starting in Photoshop and trying to figure out the rest later. This approach allows us to have a more practical and strategic foundation for our work.
We are not primarily a branding agency, but rather a performance marketing agency. Many of our clients come to us after working with a branding agency that offers performance marketing services as an add-on, but may not specialize or excel in those areas. We are the go-to team once the branding and logo are already established. While we don’t handle logo design, we do build websites. If a website project is not a good fit for us, we will refer the client to someone who can provide a better price or, if the project requires advanced expertise, to a company like Atiba.
For instance, if a project falls outside our scope, such as logo design or a complex website development, we will refer the client to more suitable options like Atiba. However, when it comes to advertising campaigns, SEO, inbound content marketing, and social media content publishing, we become highly engaged. These areas allow us to calculate and demonstrate a return on investment (ROI), which excites us. Our key differentiator lies in our focus on meeting the client’s specific needs, often before they even realize what those needs are. While some clients may initially seek a solution to a specific problem, we understand that they require a dependable partner who can guide and improve the performance of their marketing efforts. In addition to performance-driven solutions, we also offer coaching and industry insights to prevent problems and provide a broader perspective. We recognize that our focus on practical and diligent execution, even in less glamorous aspects, sets us apart, although there are many other reputable companies doing commendable work in the industry.
Joey Baggott
Just suggest him.
Michael Epps Utley
And that’s been a good business for us.
Annakate Ross
That’s really cool. So, after getting into the industry and experiencing your first significant breakthrough with that $284,000 contract twelve or thirteen years ago, it seems like it was primarily focused on SEO. I’m curious to know how the world of SEO has evolved from then until now.
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, I think SEO has maintained surprising consistency in some aspects but has been long overdue for a significant market shift. I believe that AI is now bringing that reset to the table.
It has been surprising to see the dominant and consistent role Google has played in the field. However, personally, I feel that they haven’t served organic content publishers as well as they could have. So, in a way, as Malcolm X said, “the chickens have come home to roost.”
At some point, there are consequences, and it becomes apparent that the universe isn’t solely governed by Google. It’s interesting to see how Google responded to AI, particularly with ChatGPT, and how they didn’t really have an equally impressive solution to showcase. It was a bit like the Tesla broken window on stage moment for Google. I’ve been surprised by their dominance without as much innovation as expected. However, one thing that has remained consistent is the steady growth of companies investing in publishing and SEO. Content continues to be a significant focus, as well as other aspects of SEO.
What has changed is the increasing complexity of the search results page. SEO has often overlooked the value of that page, focusing more on our own side of the equation. This dynamic evolution of the search results page has led to the emergence of new tactics and strategies, such as AMP, schema, and other trends or tools offered by Google. Currently, there is a greater emphasis on local ads, which is another notable shift in the SEO landscape. Many companies now aim to appear in the maps 3-pack and wonder how to achieve that.
However, despite the changes and turnover in those pages, it seems that the value added to publishers is not substantial. While Google benefits from the evolution, publishers often struggle to find new valuable directions or structures. This turnover and lack of added value for publishers is something I’ve observed frequently.
Annakate Ross
Yeah, that’s interesting. When considering the value to publishers, it reminds me of Google’s absence in the realm of social networks. Having a platform that can effectively showcase organically performing content and complement it with a robust paid counterpart is crucial. Although Google made an attempt with Google Plus, it didn’t gain much traction and ultimately didn’t go very far.
Michael Epps Utley
Good point. Google Plus did initially experience significant growth surpassing other existing social platforms at the time of its launch. This led to many individuals in our field, including those on this call, signing up for the platform and discussing it. However, despite its popularity, Google Plus wasn’t a well-executed platform or product. In my opinion, it seemed like Google was aiming to establish a platform that could attribute content to specific authors, essentially creating a system for authorship on the internet. I thought they were attempting to address the issue of duplicate content by associating it with individual authors and potentially introducing a verification system similar to a Google blue checkmark. I was surprised when they chose not to focus on that concept and utilize the platform for that purpose. If they had pursued it, it could have been beneficial for the community of internet marketers seeking to overcome the problem of duplicate content through authorship. However, they decided to discontinue Google Plus and perhaps underestimated the potential benefits it could have offered to our marketing community. It seemed like they had ambitious intentions, perhaps aiming to compete with platforms like Facebook, but the exact reasoning behind their decisions remains unclear.
Annakate Ross
Yeah, you’re referring to the concept of authorship where individuals could take control of their content and establish themselves as credible authors. It was an interesting feature that could have had potential benefits in terms of content attribution and reputation. It’s understandable that it slipped from memory, as Google Plus and its associated authorship program didn’t gain long-term traction in the social media landscape.
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah I really thought that was a given at that time. I was surprised they gave up so fast.
Annakate Ross
You mentioned AI and Chat GPT, along with other emerging tools. Can you tell us how your agency is utilizing Chat GPT for positive purposes? Many people view AI as a potential threat, particularly in marketing and communications. However, I don’t share that perspective. I believe we need to adapt to these tools and explore how to make the most of them. Could you provide some examples of how your agency currently employs AI?
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, I was talking to another agency owner, and we joked about how the English majors might be lining up on the Korean Warvette’s bridge below us, ready to jump off with the advent of Chat GPT.
And I actually don’t think that’s the case. There are two beliefs I have about the way the universe works that make me think that Chat GPT is going to play out in a very different way. So, to answer more practically, the way we’re using it is for developing outlines for content. It’s a good tool to take all the content up to this point and identify the main points of a subject matter, creating the basic structure of a 7-paragraph article, for example. However, what we’re not finding it useful for, despite initial expectations, is simply replacing content production with Chat GPT. In that instance, we’re not finding it useful, and I believe this will apply differently for future versions of Chat GPT as well. The problems still exist.
I think this gets into what I believe about the way the universe works. Currently, as we increase the amount of automation through tools like Chat GPT, there will also be an increasing human use of content review workflows and other methods to inform the algorithm. On the other side, Google has been adding people to train their AI to determine if content is unique and valuable, which serves as a natural offset to the use of AI tools to generate large volumes of content.
One belief I have is that investment in SEO continues to rise year after year. There has never been a single silver bullet that completely eliminates the need for businesses to strive for prominence on the internet. Throughout the 20 years of strong competitive search engine marketing, no tool or technology has ever killed organic search as a whole. So, the first belief is that these tools always generate more opportunities than they take away. Looking at the history of automation, not just in internet marketing but throughout all of history, it has never led to an apocalyptic doomsday scenario where everyone becomes complacent. Competition remains, and as long as competition exists, entrepreneurs like me will continue to work hard and find new avenues for success. We adapt, redirect our efforts, and continue to be productive.
The other belief I have about the way the universe works is that Google maintains a delicate balance. They are like the kid on the playground standing in the middle of a seesaw, defying the norm of sitting on one end. They balance their paid search ad sales with the perception that they are the best source to access information on the internet through organic search results.
In summary, I don’t think the rise of AI and tools like Chat GPT will completely eradicate anything. Instead, it will reshape and redirect the landscape, creating new opportunities and challenges. The human drive, productivity, and the competitive nature of our society will always persist. Google, as a major player in the search engine market, will continue to balance their revenue streams while striving to provide the best search experience for users.
They have to protect their largest revenue stream, at least in terms of perception, in order to maintain their position as one of the largest technology companies. So, they carefully balance and protect the perception of the availability of organic internet content, allowing them to sell the ads they have to offer. They provide the white pages for free, while making their money from the yellow pages. This fundamental aspect of Google’s business is not going away simply because it becomes easier for SEO professionals to spin low-quality articles from before 2001.
I believe that the core principles of SEO are deeply ingrained in the internet and are not easily eradicated as some may fear. However, it does mean that we need to adapt and embrace a new set of tools. In our agency, we have actively tested and used AI for the past six months. We have determined where it is useful and have incorporated it into our workflow. However, we haven’t found it to be useful in ways that would lead an English major to jump off the Korean Warvet’s Bridge in Nashville, metaphorically speaking.
Annakate Ross
Ah, that’s a great answer. I like how you say that authority or drive doesn’t get taken away; things just get reordered. That’s a really good way to think about it. AI is now a new tool in the toolbox that can be used for good. I wonder, in my limited experience with SEO, I’ve used tools like SEMrush and Google Keyword Planner to generate keywords. How have you noticed a difference in what these tools churn out compared to what Chat GPT can produce? Are they replacing each other, or are they still being used simultaneously?
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, that’s great. I think they work hand in glove, not just hand in hand. They complement each other and make each other more valuable. The tools are useful for generating basic and shallow content based on keyword research. They help apply keywords to the content. However, neither set of tools is good at coming up with interesting and engaging content that truly resonates with readers. The generated content lacks the passion and argumentation found in, say, a Wikipedia article. It’s like having plain bread without any filling or flavor. Predictive language models tend to generate bland content because their purpose is not to cater to human readers. Similarly, keyword tools cannot automate the process of understanding the intent behind a specific keyword. Human review is necessary to determine if the person searching for a particular keyword aligns with what we offer. It’s a complex and contextual task that requires manual analysis of query data. I believe both tools get us about 80% of the way in achieving important SEO tasks, but neither of them can be used effectively without the other. Additionally, neither tool can replace the role of a human. They are simply tools that work together and complement each other. Regarding expertise in SEO, I don’t consider myself an expert. My strength has always been in assembling a team of people who are more knowledgeable than I am. I’m good at discussing and sharing ideas, but I rely on experts for their expertise.
Annakate Ross
Well, you’re certainly expressing your thoughts eloquently. It’s fascinating to see how everything is interconnected and working together in this context.
Michael Epps Utley
Okay, great. Good.
Joey Baggott
Yeah, I love your enthusiasm, and I appreciate analogies. They can indeed provide a better perspective on the topic. You’re absolutely right about the human element. While tools like Chat GPT and Google’s BERT have their strengths, they are still in the testing and research phases, and everything is in beta. It’s important to recognize that using these tools exclusively and without human input can lead to obvious and unnatural content. The clipboard buttons make it tempting to simply copy and paste generated text, but that often doesn’t result in the best outcome. I can relate to your experience of reading something that was clearly generated by Chat GPT and recognizing its distinct patterns. While it’s valuable for creating outlines and drafts, the human touch is essential for adjusting and refining the content. Coming from a sales background, you understand the significance of effective communication and the challenges AI faces in replicating human-like conversations. It will likely take a considerable amount of time for AI to reach that level of sophistication, where interactions feel genuinely human without being instantly recognizable as machine-generated. So, I understand your point, and it’s important to acknowledge the limitations of AI in certain areas.
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, I understand your perspective. We’re not burying our heads in the sand and disregarding the importance of these tools. We recognize that these tools will bring about significant changes. However, what remains constant is the value of unique, relevant, and personalized human perspective when it comes to subject matter. I anticipate that social media content, video content, and podcast content will gain importance as SEO factors. Similar to the impact of the Panda update from twelve to fourteen years ago, I expect that content that feels duplicated or appears to be generated by predictive language models will face challenges. I believe that such content will struggle to resonate with audiences. For instance, the recent hype around Go High Level is a reminder that while a tool may temporarily overshadow certain aspects like email, it doesn’t guarantee improved business performance. These trends come and go, often causing widespread anxiety. They can turn out to be more devastating than initially expected, although their effects may differ from our initial assumptions. In my opinion, Chat GPT is a powerful tool when it comes to search engines, but it doesn’t replace the need for human involvement in working with search engines.
Joey Baggott
No, I think that’s great! Somebody should clip that because it’s a good one-liner quote. Um, but yeah, it brings up some good points. As I mentioned in some pre-calls, and you mentioned it as well, you love the myth-busting side of things.
I think a few things you just said kind of hint at some myths that maybe people have been spreading. A lot of it seems to be coming from these AI influencers, people who want to get noticed for their knowledge of AI, and I love that. I think influencers are great. But I do think that some of their stuff might lean more towards the myth side rather than being factual. So, I wanted to talk about a couple of things. You did mention there’s more of a shift towards social media advertisement, but some people are saying that digital marketing today should be all about social media. I think that alienates a couple of things that have always been successful, one of those being email marketing. So, just out of curiosity, what’s your take on people saying that digital marketing is all about social media?
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, I think everybody kind of, you know, we don’t like to admit it, but we’re all susceptible to shiny object syndrome. So I think social media, these big channels, they come onto the scene with a big hoopla, then die down for a while, and some make it while others don’t. Podcasting followed a similar pattern. Everyone went nuts for podcasting, it was a huge thing, then it died off for 5-7 years, and now it’s come back as one of the foundational elements. How does that happen? How does that adjustment occur? There’s always a shockwave. I think social media is in a similar place. There was a shockwave where everyone was super focused and excited about it, and then there was a decline where people said they didn’t get anything out of it and stopped using it. But now it’s real, it’s not going away. It’s a foundational element where we found the most success.
So, yeah, we think social media is core and central. It’s one of the main slices of the pie for managing digital presence across the board. However, we take a different approach to content strategy. Publishing on social media isn’t an end in itself; it’s part of a larger picture that extends the brand and interactions to places where those formats thrive. Social media is really good, but if you don’t have a content strategy that also connects with your website, search engine indexing, and video strategy, if you’re not thinking about the larger content strategy and letting social media flow out of that, it will always feel shallow, self-serving, and miss out on opportunities. So, yeah, I think when it has a good connection to the bigger strategy, it’s absolutely one of the most important things. But I wouldn’t neglect email, video, or SEO just for social media. In many conversations, we load balance back to other channels away from someone who thinks social media is the only thing they’re finally ready to do in a big way.
Joey Baggott
So maybe we need to bring back MySpace is what you’re saying?
Michael Epps Utley
I think having a full spectrum approach to SEO, paid advertising, email, and multimedia content is crucial. If I had to simplify the internet down to those elements, it would be sufficient to achieve the desired results for any campaign. Covering those bases would allow me to yield the outcomes I need and achieve good results.
Annakate Ross
You just talked a little bit about the diversification of some of your efforts and where to focus your resources. But what do you say to people who believe that a single major digital marketing effort will yield residual effects and negate the need for continuous efforts? What is your response to that perspective?
Michael Epps Utley
We break down the different ways they could use their budget and demonstrate the return on investment of various strategies. As Joey mentioned earlier, relying solely on a social media strategy may lead to unrealistic expectations. We often advise starting with an SEO program and utilizing social media publishing as an additional component with lower costs. By leveraging search engine traction, we can generate more substantial business results. The key is to balance the allocation of resources and not overly emphasize a single strategy that may not be a strong lead driver on its own. Ultimately, our focus is on delivering success. If there is room in the budget, we can incorporate additional elements. However, we emphasize prioritizing the foundational elements first to ensure a solid conversion path. These discussions are essential in our collaborative and education-oriented approach to sales, where we aim to understand the available return on investments for different approaches and provide our best recommendation to assist clients in making informed decisions.
Annakate Ross
Got it, and you know, being able to show value in terms of ROI (Return on Investment) from the start is crucial. So, for so long, back in the pre-digital era of marketing (if we can even call it that), it was much harder to establish a clear line between the results achieved and the efforts made. But now, in the digital age, it’s become so much easier.
Now, when it comes to putting content out there, there’s a myth that simply publishing content is enough. But that’s not the case. It used to be a common belief, but it’s important to dispel this misconception. The adage “content is king” needs to be understood in the right context. What do you say to that?
Michael Epps Utley
Um, ah, wow! What a great and interesting insight! Yeah, the concept of “content is king” was a way for everyone to recognize the value of having control over their presence in search engines through content creation. By consistently producing content over time, businesses could build up an asset, a business asset, with search engine placement. So, during that time, content truly reigned supreme because it offered a compounding benefit over advertising.
I still believe that this holds true, but now I would argue that content with a robust publishing strategy is king. Let me give you an example from our company, GoEpps. We get really excited when we can design a content strategy in a way that maximizes the publishing footprint without requiring excessive production effort. This means we can leverage one piece of content to create multiple assets.
For instance, we might plan a video podcast and produce episodes that can be clipped into shorter segments. These clips can then be playlisted on platforms like YouTube. Additionally, we can extract sound bites where we answer a specific question in just a few minutes. These sound bites can be included in our email newsletter and promoted on our social channels. By being more strategic and thoughtful before hitting the record button, we can make the most of our content. In essence, I believe that content strategy is still king, but the queen is the art of publishing and distribution.
Annakate Ross
That’s a great answer. I just wrote down a little note for our podcast – we should totally be doing that.
Joey Baggott
Yeah, I agree with that. It’s important to understand that content without a strategy is not enough. While some may emphasize the need for consistent content in terms of timing, what they often overlook is the consistency in messaging and branding. And that’s where your point, Michael, about a robust publishing strategy comes into play. It adds value by ensuring that the content aligns with the overall brand and message.
So, while there is some truth to the idea that putting content out there is important, it’s not sufficient on its own. Combining it with a thoughtful publishing strategy, as you mentioned, enhances its effectiveness and brings greater value. It’s about creating content that resonates with the target audience and supports the larger marketing goals.
With that said, I have one final question to tie everything together since we’re nearing the end of our discussion.
We’ve extensively discussed AI and digital marketing, and I appreciate how you’ve debunked the misconception that tools like ChatGPT will replace jobs. Instead, they will complement human capabilities and enhance our productivity once the initial excitement subsides. I agree with you that there may be a decline in enthusiasm followed by a resurgence as people become more familiar and comfortable with these tools. With all the new AI tools coming out every day and every week, what do you think in terms of business and digital marketing, is not going to change in the way we operate?
Michael Epps Utley
Yeah, I think the one significant aspect that won’t change is that companies will still need to function as publishers to establish and enhance their online presence. The specific tactics and technical aspects may vary from year to year, such as the emphasis on social media distribution of videos, offsite versus onsite strategies, or managing client testimonials and online reviews effectively. These elements constantly evolve. However, what we often overlook when focusing on the changing landscape is that companies now have the responsibility of generating content about themselves and distributing it everywhere. They need to produce and publish videos, share pictures from job sites, and have customers share their experiences on camera, even for something as simple as getting a mole removed. Twenty years ago, companies didn’t anticipate this shift and the need to become content producers and publishers. This fundamental transformation has persisted for the past two decades, and even with the advent of graphic interfaces for local business search, it remains a core requirement.
Annakate Ross
The hurt.
Michael Epps Utley
Every business has permanently transformed into a publisher, and this fundamental shift has remained unchanged. Having a distinct voice in the world stems from offering unique products and services. The ability to discover and amplify that voice has not changed. This enduring trend is one of the remarkable aspects of the internet, and it can be quite astonishing when we take a step back and reflect upon it.
Joey Baggott
Right.
Annakate Ross
That’s great – really insightful. I was just jotting down a bunch of great sound bites.
Joey Baggott
Yes, I was thinking the same thing. This guy’s got a lot of good one liners.
Michael Epps Utley
Ah, clip, click and post them. That’s good.
Annakate Ross
As we wrap up Michael, are there any specific things you would like to promote? Are there any channels you’d like people to follow or any information about your new podcast?
Michael Epps Utley
Yes, I would love to hear from people who find this information useful and connect with me on LinkedIn. We’re actively engaged in digital marketing, so feel free to check us out. We’re also launching a new podcast, transitioning from our previous brand dodgeball marketing to a more interview-based format under the GoEpps brand. It’s our first GoEpps podcast, and we’re really excited about it. We would appreciate hearing from listeners about the guests they would like to hear on the Atiba Podcast and subsequently on the GoEpps Podcast. These interactions and feedback are extremely valuable to us. So, the number one thing we would love to hear is people’s thoughts on what they found useful from this conversation.
Annakate Ross
That’s awesome. Okay, great. We’ll definitely make sure to include a link to your LinkedIn profile, Dodgeball Marketing’s website, and all relevant information in the show notes. So, Michael Epps Utley, thank you so much for joining us today. We really enjoyed this conversation.
Michael Epps Utley
Love it! Awesome! Thank you! And yeah, our logo, the narwhal. So here’s a narwhal for the day. I promised myself I’d get that on camera. That’s it. Thank you all. Thanks so much for having me.
Annakate Ross
Awesome, thanks Michael!
Joey Baggott
Awesome, very cool.